| chocolatteharts: OH GOD YUCK.
chocolatteharts: i HATE this stupid women engineering kick
chocolatteharts: WHY??
taltree2007: lol its not that bad
taltree2007: trust me
chocolatteharts: we are just as capable of being inspired to be engineers as guys are
taltree2007: oo i know, but remember karen, why do you sit though boring stupid seminars? to make CONTACTS
taltree2007: hence when karen hart comes up at MIT, oo yea, she was that awesome girl who really nailed out presentation
taltree2007: we could use karens!
chocolatteharts: grrrrrrr
chocolatteharts: why all this separation??
chocolatteharts: dont they realize that its just promoting old stereotypes??
chocolatteharts: actions speak louder than words!!
taltree2007: yes i know i know
chocolatteharts: GRRR
taltree2007: karen! calm down! ::holds back from punching MIT::
chocolatteharts: its not just mit its everyone
chocolatteharts: they all do this
taltree2007: i know
chocolatteharts: even olin, who i worship and love to death, had a strictly women open house
taltree2007: really???
chocolatteharts: and its like...GRR.
chocolatteharts: i dont want to be a "woman" engineer
chocolatteharts: i just want to be a good engineer
chocolatteharts: regardless of what gender i am
chocolatteharts: do they ever even think about how all of us girls feel about this??
taltree2007: ur genderless!
chocolatteharts: its DEGRADING
taltree2007: look, i agree
chocolatteharts: its much more degrading than being in a profession with mainly guys
chocolatteharts: in fact, i have no problems with that at all
taltree2007: haha, u get to hang out with me and andrew all day
chocolatteharts: because who cares if theyre guys as long as theyre competent?
chocolatteharts: who cares if theyre girls?
taltree2007: yep
chocolatteharts: WHY make these discriminations??!?!
taltree2007: my opinion, the think they can fix past discriminations with new ones, specifically target the women, let the men find it on their own
chocolatteharts: well they cant
chocolatteharts: theyre only making it worse
chocolatteharts: and the past doesnt need fixing
chocolatteharts: its gone
taltree2007: true, but karen here is how i see it
taltree2007: we both know you are going to be a kick ass engineer right?
chocolatteharts: yes, your point?
taltree2007: for some reason they dont get that u WANT to be an engineer, but regardless, one day when you are very rich, other little karen wannabe's are going to look up to u because u set the mark, u succeeded not because u were a woman, but because of who you are, thats what they will see, so let them try it now, but it the time to come, u as an engineer is what will inspire people
chocolatteharts: well you know what
chocolatteharts: when youre an engineer nobody is gonna think that you got there easier by being a girl
chocolatteharts: when youre in college AND when you have a job
chocolatteharts: me, im gonna have that following me always
chocolatteharts: that doubt that im as competent as everyone else or just there to "correct the past" or raise a percentage
taltree2007: karen, we both know you are
chocolatteharts: i know that
chocolatteharts: you know that
chocolatteharts: but every job i go to, ppl arent gonna know that
chocolatteharts: theyre going to wonder
chocolatteharts: much more than they would wonder about a guy
chocolatteharts: and im gonna have to work twice as hard to prove myself
chocolatteharts: which is exactly how it was for women before, when they were just starting to become engineers
taltree2007: true
chocolatteharts: theyre keeping us at that level by not allowing things to run their natural course
chocolatteharts: by separating genders, nothing is changing
taltree2007: very true, but that is why karen, u prove urself by actions, design projects, inventions, hell be the first woman on mars, cause u can be, that is why they will hire u, ur above the percentage
chocolatteharts: i KNOW that joe
chocolatteharts: but im only one person
taltree2007: right, but u may be the one person to start a revolution, and also while these things are sexist, who knows, maybe there is one more inspired female who is like u but didnt have the confidence
taltree2007: u have to agree, SOME good does come from these
chocolatteharts: some small instances of good
chocolatteharts: and a worldwide stereotype taltree2007: true, but right now, id rather have one inspired girl working something she didnt think she could doing away with a stereotype in its entirety
chocolatteharts: what about the non inspired guy, not being an engineer?
taltree2007: thats the problem i see when u lose the stereotype, more uninspired people who dont love what they do, id rather have more inspired than less
chocolatteharts: and i bet the english majors would love to have more ppl inspired to their profession
taltree2007: same with accountants, but u know what, i love english but its hard to be inspired in english, we need inspired engineers or else poof, the world crawls
chocolatteharts: we need everything
chocolatteharts: we need the engineers and the math majors and the basket weaving majors and the theatre majors and everyone in between
taltree2007: wait wait wait
taltree2007: i can major in basket weaving?
chocolatteharts: theres no harm in letting ppl know their options
taltree2007: where??
taltree2007: lol
chocolatteharts: but that doesnt mean you should target specific groups for specific fields
chocolatteharts: THAT is undeniably discrimination
chocolatteharts: and claiming we need engineers and not english majors is as well
taltree2007: wait
taltree2007: wait wai
chocolatteharts: its nearsighted and immature
taltree2007: karen, so ur telling me that lets say FIRST, or even most colleges in general arent targeting specific groups? i mean literally, its a recruiting field now
chocolatteharts: what if they only targeted white ppl?
chocolatteharts: there would be an outrage
chocolatteharts: what if they only targeted guys?
chocolatteharts: there would be a war
chocolatteharts: but if they target the minorities, and leave out the rest, assuming that they can find it on their own, thats considered ok
taltree2007: oo thats why im against affirmitive action in its entirety
chocolatteharts: joe
chocolatteharts: this gender this IS affirmative action
chocolatteharts: you cant be against affirmative action and for what theyve done to women in engineering
chocolatteharts: its the same thing
taltree2007: karen, i have been agreeing with u for most of this
taltree2007: with the exception is, that i say good comes from this, u disagree
chocolatteharts: does good come from affirmative action?
chocolatteharts: maybe for a few ppl, here and there
chocolatteharts: but on the widescreen?
chocolatteharts: no, its just being discriminative
taltree2007: right
chocolatteharts: the end does not justify the means
taltree2007: i ask you this, do you think engineers need to be inspired to be affective and good engineers?
chocolatteharts: i think they need to be passionate about their careers, as in any field
chocolatteharts: i also believe strongly in natural progression
chocolatteharts: if someone is meant to be an engineer, they will be inspired naturally
taltree2007: of course
chocolatteharts: whether by themselves or by someone else
chocolatteharts: there is no point in targeting girls because the ones you get were probably already inspired, or would have been
chocolatteharts: and in the meantime, its promoting that backlash image taltree2007: im just speaking in general, because if u look at engineers in general
taltree2007: a certain percentage arent inspired
taltree2007: agreed?
chocolatteharts: sure
taltree2007: now, the reason i used the term women engineers, is that i consider them to be among the best, the entire group, now i know its not socially acceptable to group them and i dont like doing it, but my point is, right now, they are the best of the best, stop focusing on them and u may lose some of that, and gain some engineers who arent doing it for the right reasons
chocolatteharts: DO NOT CALL THEM THE BEST OF THE BEST
chocolatteharts: dont you get it??
chocolatteharts: even if you stereotype us in a good way, youre still stereotyping
chocolatteharts: we dont want to be better than the guys, we want to be treated the same
taltree2007: right! i agree with that!
chocolatteharts: we ARENT any better
chocolatteharts: in general terms
chocolatteharts: i mean, i might be better than you
chocolatteharts: but that doesnt mean WOMEN and better engineers than MEN
taltree2007: no....
taltree2007: im better
chocolatteharts: the best engineers are not all women
taltree2007: i win at monopoly
taltree2007: lol
taltree2007: no, i agree, my point was, the engineers that are women, are inspired
chocolatteharts: and not all women are great engineers
chocolatteharts: theyre as dispersed in ability as men engineers are
taltree2007: maybe not all
chocolatteharts: and not all of them are inspired
taltree2007: but most
taltree2007: right
chocolatteharts: so dont go SWE on me and try to shove discrimination down my throat all sugar-coated in complimentary stereotypes
chocolatteharts: because it simply isnt true
chocolatteharts: you cant say youre against the discrimination and affirmative action and then say that all or most "women" engineers are inspired and not men
taltree2007: all i was doing was compare a percentage
taltree2007: 75-60
taltree2007: 80-75
taltree2007: maybe thats bad
taltree2007: i dont know
chocolatteharts: do you think straight men in theater are more passionate about what they do than girls or gay guys merely because theyre a minority?
chocolatteharts: or what about a white person in african american studies? are they more passionate than their collegues, by virtue of being a minority?
taltree2007: u make good points, i really have no idea, and ur right, i shouldnt be making assumptions, but being as u are one of the FEW girls i know who is interested in engineering, i kept seeing u as the norm, not the exception
chocolatteharts: like i said before, im just one person
taltree2007: right, and it was my mistake to use u as a standard
chocolatteharts: its just that theres this typical assumption that girls wont mind being classified and separated if its in a "good way", that we only mind when its in a bad way
chocolatteharts: and maybe thats true for some
chocolatteharts: but thats hypocritical
chocolatteharts: anyone, really
taltree2007: right, its if they get a raise because they were a woman, but ted in accounting deserved it
chocolatteharts: exactly
chocolatteharts: im gonna get a job someday
chocolatteharts: where ill have been up against a lot of really competent ppl
chocolatteharts: most of whom will probably be men
chocolatteharts: and itll kill me inside, not knowing if i got that job over someone else because i really deserved it or if me being a girl swayed that decision
taltree2007: and u knwo what, it sux, because u dont deserve that feeling
chocolatteharts: and the guys who dont the job dont deserve their wondering either
chocolatteharts: all of this would be so much better, see, for everyone, if we could just drop that whole "we need to help women out" thing
chocolatteharts: i dont know about other girls
chocolatteharts: but i dont need any help
chocolatteharts: and if youre gonna offer it to me, you better damn well offer it to the men too, or im gonna feel like you dont think i can do it on my own.
taltree2007: good point
taltree2007: and u know what?
chocolatteharts: what?
taltree2007: we have been arguing this for 1 hour and 3 minutes
chocolatteharts: i shoulda warned you
chocolatteharts: never get me on this subject
chocolatteharts: its pretty much my prime arguing subject
taltree2007: but u know what
chocolatteharts: though a close second is the proposed smoking ban
taltree2007: i have enjoyed it
chocolatteharts: im glad to hear that
chocolatteharts: i hope ive given you something to think about
chocolatteharts: and to counter all those things that get pounded into your head by FIRST and colleges about women in engineering JakeTeam134: there is a valid point in there though
JakeTeam134: schools dont think girls want to be engineers, because society downplays the role of powerful women in a role like engineer
JakeTeam134: which is why the field is primarily men
JakeTeam134: to try to compensate for that, theyre doing what theyre doing
chocolatteharts: the field is also primarily men because men and women have different brains
JakeTeam134: also true
JakeTeam134: social breeding has changed the human race a lot
JakeTeam134: the main reason i believe in evolution--or at least social darwinism-- is that
JakeTeam134: the point in trying to get at is that the american society has developed more than a few stereotypes that are constantly perpetuated on every level possible, whether theyre right or not
chocolatteharts: very true
JakeTeam134: the women in science just happens to be one of those
chocolatteharts: yeah
chocolatteharts: and in trying to get rid of it, theyve just reinforced it
JakeTeam134: pretty much
JakeTeam134: almost as badly as affirmative action
chocolatteharts: it IS affirmative action
chocolatteharts: its the exact same thing
chocolatteharts: only with gender, not race
JakeTeam134: it is, on a different scale
JakeTeam134: rather than discriminating against white males, its all males
chocolatteharts: which naturally sparks animosity for the girls taking spots that they may or may not deserve
JakeTeam134: yep
JakeTeam134: in the broader scope, in general affirmative action, people like me arent allowed to feel mad that were being discrimated against
JakeTeam134: because its not politically correct for white males to be angry that someone, who might be less qualified, got a job rather than us based on gender, race, age, etx
JakeTeam134: etc*
JakeTeam134: and if we do get mad about it, were racist or sexist
chocolatteharts: which is another thing i could rant about, but go on
JakeTeam134: im not even allowed to show dissaproval for affirmative action because its racist to do so if youre not in one of the "protected groups"
chocolatteharts: i wish i was, so ppl would listen when i rail against it
chocolatteharts: of course, ppl still dont listen to me when i go off about the women in engineering thing, and its quite obvious that im a girl
JakeTeam134: really? never noticed
chocolatteharts: oh shush
JakeTeam134: ive never been a proponent of affirmative action of any kind, but like i said i cant do anything about it
JakeTeam134: middle class white male is the group that is primarily left behind in circumstances like...well everything
chocolatteharts: yeah, pretty much so there you have it...karen's jake's and joe's opinions on the women in engineering issue. and if you feel like arguing about the smoking ban sometime, you should im me. i have LOADS to say. |
